Coin With Two Sides

Sometimes uncomfortable things need to be said. Such is the case with this ad. While the terms are harsh, the statistics tell the stark truth: most black American children are raised without a father in the home.

This ad is appearing all around LA. Having seen one at a bus stop near my home, I nodded and said to myself, “that’s right.” Will these ads make a difference in the fatherless rate of black children? Time will tell. However, have the feelings of some black Americans become so tender that no one can say anything about trending detrimental behavior, behavior that hurts their progeny more than anyone else? Dean and Glenn Sacks say yes, but I think that they are viewing the ad from the perspective of divorced, non-custodial fathers. (In fairness, the ad seems to slant that way.) La Shawn and I know differently and say so in Dean’s comments. The large-scale fatherless problem in the black community doesn't stem from child custody battles in the wake of divorce. It stems from the parents never having been married in the first place. And, in my view, it's the black woman's problem.

Black men have been hammered hard in print regarding this problem, but the other half of the equation is more damning: why are so many black women choosing to reproduce without giving their children a legitimate, responsible father? Two reasons: 1) the wrong lessons of feminism have been internalized by black woman and, 2) the government has made it easy for such women to survive without the benefit of having a man around.

“A man will only do what you allow him to do,” opines my great-aunt. Let’s face it. In American society, women control how the course of a relationship will run, barring nutcase men. (And even with most of them, a woman can steer clear. There’s usually an early warning sign.) Only the most self-controlled of men will refrain from…taking advantage, should an…opportunity be presented to him. And when the conception occurs and the product is presented nine months later, there is no stigma attached to the man or woman. The well-employed woman can financially provide for herself and progeny—with grandparents, baby-sitters and/or daycare taking up the slack; the shiftless woman can get “aid,” supported by those who had no part in the conception. The man is free to go out and, possibly, produce more little mouths to feed.

“I don’t need no man to raise my baby!” How many times have I heard that mantra? Well, girlfriend, you may not need a man, but your child most assuredly does, be it girl or boy. Black women notoriously display a certain amount of independence, yours truly included. (One may accurately term much of it as bravado.) However, no one is independent of the consequences of his/her choices. When the prospect of a new life looms on the horizon, created by choice—and outside of rape, when a woman has sex with a man, she has made a choice that can lead to the (pro)creation of a life—it is no longer just about that woman. It is no longer just about that man. Both have made the choice to take the chance that a new life may be created, promises of birth control being consumed and use of condoms notwithstanding. And that new life doesn’t care about her “independence”; it doesn’t care about his “freedom.”

This state of affairs has many rippling effects, most of which are well-documented. Here’s another one: the reason, I suspect, that there are so many good, competent, smart black women--who have not procreated--that are not married is this: when so many other black women are giving up the milk without strings (remember that 70% statistic), why should a man buy the “cow” when another “cow” will give up the milk gratis?

I’m not going to sit here and pontificate as if I’ve always been the perfect angel in this regard. Some lessons have to be drilled into one’s head by beating it against a brick wall; others, however, are learned by observing patterns, if you’re attentive enough to be looking. I know too many black women who are short-sighted enough to lay down with crooks, bums with nine other kids, or other unacceptable donors of DNA, and produce children. Or they will pick out some seemingly more acceptable guy, sleep with him, reproduce and expect him to “pay up.” Failing to realize that the world no longer revolves around them, failing to observe how their own actions contributed to reality, they then have the nerve to opine that there are “no good black men” out there. (What *good* man wants to have anything to do with such a woman?) Too many cannot comprehend that they have placed this responsibility in their own lives. Not Grandpa and Grandma’s life, not the tax-payers’ lives, but their own. Are these women stupid? No (well, not most of them). They’ve merely been indoctrinated with the mindset that the world owes them something for doing what humans have done from the beginning.

Should bastardy regain the stigma that it once had? Yes, but not for the child. In this age, the parents of that child are the ones who should be stigmatized.*

I contend that when black women en masse step up to the plate of real independence; of the responsibility that goes along with the right to reproduce, our male counterparts will do so also. That plate is met with the crossing of the knees.

* Some might make the argument that my screed makes the case for abortion-on-demand. Religious considerations aside—and I am against abortion for those reasons, as well--I would disagree because it implies that humans, on a large scale, are so incapable of self-control that abortion is a necessary out for such conditions. Dogs in heat have to rut. Humans don’t.

Comments

[The Commissar]

Maybe the rest of us should just STOP BLOGGING, and re-direct our traffic to yours.

Well said, Juliette.

[og]

Ditto.

[ambra]

You better preach on that one. Every last thing you said was spot on.

[La Shawn Barber]

Juliette- The ads, Dean's post and the crusade against the bus ads really inspired you. We women always knew what your great-aunt said: "A man will only do what you allow him to do." Women have so much power they don't even tap into. We are free moral agents in control of our own bodies. Instead, some women choose to play the victim, crying "He left me after I got pregnant" and "He's nothing but a dog", etc.

The only other thing I can say is, "Amen." I was saying it as I read the post and when I saw Ambra's comment about preaching, I laughed!

[rudy]

heavy heavy i'm linking to it

[joel]

Well, don't let black men off too easily.

I remember well the black man with HIV (he knew it) in NYC who married a Finn, went to Finland, and proceeded to infect about 50 women. He was a one man AIDS epidemic. Imagine what a 100 men like him could do.

It takes two to tango.

The real question is why things have worsened, not improved, in the last 50 years. To right wingers, it is obvious. There was a famous case years ago, about 1960, when NYU kicked a pregnant, unmarried woman out of school. There was a fuss and she was readmitted. I recall well William Buckley wrote an editorial against letting her back in, but to no avail. Single motherhood became accepted.

We were all told by the progressives that unmarried motherhood was no big deal, provided society ("the taxpayers") provided proper support ("my money.") Well, we have all learned a lesson I hope.

I recall a conversation my father had with a male friend when I was very small and impressionable. They were cursing a mutual friend who had left his wife and children. In my childhood, a man who did such a thing was a man of no repect. That was a lesson I learned at my father's knee. I have been married for almost 30 years, in part because of that attitude. Dumping your family just isn't permisible. It is simply not an option.

My cousin had a shotgun marriage. My cousin is still married, with two fine children and a fine wife.

Getting married and staying married is the most effective way for men and women to kept out of poverty.

Maybe we should bring back shotgun weddings?

[Jason Bontrager]

Juliette, the more I read of you, the more I respect your mind and opinions (even when I disagree). So on that note, I may just have to nominate you for Connie Du Toit's "Find Steven Den Beste a Mate" search. The results would be...awe inspiring:-)

[baldilocks]

Swirly Dutch-Kenyan-American-Ochieng-Den Bestians, Oh my!

[StinKerr]

This is a societal problem not entirely restricted to any one ethnicity. I'm going to try to get my friend to show this to his two daughters. It's a little late for them though. One has a six month old son and the other will be delivering a daughter any time now. At least she made it through her recent high school graduation commencement.

Both fathers have been run off as worthless. My question, of course, would be obvious: "Why did you lie with them in the first place?"

I can say no more, Juliette, you have said it all.

[Mac Diva]

I think letting society, one which is composed of people pretty hostile to African-Americans, largely, decide about one's reproduction is not a good idea. Takes away too much of a woman's autonomy. Furthermore, the oft repeated claim black folks are breeding too much is false. The African-American birthrate is down. Pretty close to the white birth rate, in fact. That includes a decline in teenage pregnancies.

I think many women, white as well as minority, are deciding to have a child on their own because they want the experience of parenting. If they don't act, they lose the opportunity. It is not for me to say they don't have a right to make that decision.

Rudy, do you have any proof of what you are saying in your comment? If not, it strikes me as passing on an ugly stereotype.

[Robert]

Excellent post. Don't let the men off too easy. As a single father, I am too often disgusted with the activities of my fellow "man." I don't mind a little extra pressure to the fathers of the world to step up a bit. We all need it. My daughter especially.

[Aaron]

Great article. This situation is tragic. I was just thinking about this the other day when I was in line at Aldi and I saw a Black woman with two young girls and no wedding ring. This past weekend we had a family reunion and my cousin just had a baby. She is 23 but is unmarried. The whole time the baby was in the arms of her parents while she was just talking on her cell phone to her friends. She probably won't be the mother but let her parents raise the child. My grandmother was on the phone and talking about not letting the father see the baby because he is "crazy and a bad father." Than I said, "Well, is she a good mother???" From the other day I would say no. Nobody should have sex before marriage, especially women. How can you raise a child with morals when you did not have any yourself? And yes, it should be the mother, father or the parents who should be stigmatized, not the child. It is not their fault. Just continue to pray for our youth and for Jesus to fill their hearts with the Truth and the Light. God Bless

[Sharps Shooter]

Concur yr analysis.
Responsibility is a HUMAN trait, and not the sole domain of this, that or the other race.

Still, I fought for 16 months against a legal/social system which was heavily weighted against fathers who wanted to raise the son abandoned by mom in her search for the right man to scratch that incessant itch she had... just there.

And, against 19:1 odds, I was awarded custody of my beloved son.

So mom just kidnapped him, age 4, when he'd lived with me without her since 9 months...

Water under the bridge? Well, maybe. But the water was poisoned, and he's grown into a young man who loathes himself and acts like a homosexual. Did mom 'win'? If she did, both my son and his mother lost, bigtime.

-Just another wrinkle in a large canvas-

[La Shawn Barber]

Mac Diva- I see you adopt different personas for different blogs.

[JT_Hunter]

I have held conversations with people that believe this is acceptable behavior in the past. I just do not get it. Thanks for putting into words things I could not say without offending someone. I have added you to my Blog roll, as I have only started to read yours in the recent past. Excellent insight.

[Indigo]

I concur with StinKer and feel that our permissive and deteriorating society,
more than color, is at fault.

[Mac Diva]

Baldilocks, having been around for a while, I had suspicions about the funding for the billboards. I checked. They're being funded by the Pioneer Institute and other parties associated with the eugenics movement. You may know that Pioneer is behindThe Bell Curve and the genetic inferiority 'research' of Phillipe Rushton. (Which claims black people are inherently inferior, of course.) Despite the pretext of 'helping' African-Americans, the intent of the billboards appears to be to embarrass and marginalize black men.

La Shawn, I am very consistent -- including when it comes to addressing fools. I don't cut any of them any slack. Yes, that includes you. Over at your pathetic excuse for a blog, you say you are eager to run off and join a 'Christian' commune run by white separatists. Begone! And. . . take yoru own rope.

[meep]

MacD - the birth rate may be down, but that doesn't mean the pregnancy rate is. Black women have abortions in far higher proportions than do any other race in America. And I don't think it's mainly married women having those abortions.

I just want to remark some of the most disgusting terms I've ever heard is "baby daddy" and "baby mama" - obviously not talking about their spouses, for they don't have any. One of the lost virtues in this society, among all races, is shame. It would be nice to revive that. People =should= be ashamed of the disgraceful things they do, as opposed to crowing about it.

[Mrs. du Toit]

As many have said before, excellent post!

What's the answer, Juliette?

My 2 cents: Women have been clamoring for more and more power. Unfortunately, much of that power and control comes without all the downsides—the responsibility and accountability part.

Women want to have control of their bodies AFTER conception, but haven't demonstrated a whole lot BEFORE conception (and I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else).

It's time we gave them 100% of what they want. 100% control. That means 100% responsibility. If a woman decides to have a child, without being married, it is HER responsibility to raise and provide for that child—no running to the government to go after the one-night stand for money. HER money must support the child. That's the flip side (the accountability part) of "a woman's body, a woman's choice." You get to choose: all or nothing.

If men want involvement in the children they sire (and women want the father involved), we have a nice and nifty arrangement for them: GET MARRIED FIRST.

None of this, unfortunately, helps the child at all. That seems to be the person most left out by all of this—the last to have a say. There is no easy answer. Until we respect that a child has rights, and one of the paramount rights of a child is to have a mother AND a father in their home (at least as part of the original plan), then nothing will change.

At least making women accountable for their "choices" would be a step in the right direction.

[Rikki]

First: AMEN!!

And women who have babies without daddies just because they want the "experience" of parenting need to hear what I tell my son all the time:

IT AIN'T ABOUT YOU!

The child shouldn't suffer because she wanted to satisfy a maternal instinct. SHoo, go help the homeless, get a foster child...something!

Spoken as a single black mother who takes full responsibility for her actions.

AMEN, AGAIN!

[JC]

Amen. Amen. I have never understood the women who claim a man is good enough to procreate with, but not good enough to marry. If he's so no-good, what did you sleep with him for? Doesn't that make you a slut? I am intolerant of that attitude that says it's okay to behave like that. I am single, I have never been married, and when a man who knows my marital status asks me how many children I have, I just subtract IQ points and cross him off my list. It would be interesting to know what is going through some people's minds when they make these choices. Why does it seem okay to them? I think some people just value all the wrong things.

More women need to have some standards. Have some sense. Agree totally with Mrs. du Toit that rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. You (du Toit) asked what the solution is, but I think the one you suggested would work best: accountability.

[caltechgirl]

Yes Yes Yes!
Juliette, you make the most important point (echoed by others as well) that once there is a procreation, it STOPS being about the parents and starts being all about the child, and until people begin to realize that parenting is about unselfishness and prioritizing your child above yourself, this problem will continue.Including terminology like "baby-mama" and "baby-daddy" into routine use doesn't help either. In the last 4-5 years I have heard those terms used increasingly, and with more matter-of-factness as time goes on.

However, I would like to add that in many cases there is still quite a stigma attached to young single motherhood. Otherwise the Maury Povich show would be out of business...(My favorite episode title: "Is one of these 8 men my baby's daddy?")

[Francis W. Porretto]

I could not have said it better, and in all probability would never have thought to try. Bravo, Juliette.

[Leslie]

Rudy, do you have any proof of what you are saying in your comment? If not, it strikes me as passing on an ugly stereotype.

It's mostly true, but he overstated the numbers involved, I believe. See the link at:
http://www.aidsmobility.org/finland_clarke.pdf

"The Defining Event in the Finnish Story of Migrants and
HIV/AIDS
While there is no room here to explore the specific elements of the Finnish HIV/AIDS
narrative, I will briefly focus on what can be termed the defining event in the story of
HIV/AIDS with regard to migrants: The Steven Thomas case. Steven Thomas was an
African-American man who was charged by the Finnish criminal police with
attempted manslaughter through the deliberate spread of HIV infection in 1997."

Later the report states Thomas was convicted of 17 counts of attempted manslaughter.

[Leslie]

Sorry, I hit post instead of preview, I was going to clean that up.

[Eva]

Unwanted pregnancies make no sense to me. Absolutely no bleeding sense. I don't care about the race, class, culture involved -- getting pregnant accidentally is just plain human stupidity. People, the pills are just $25 a month from Planned Parenthood -- take the f*cking pills. They cost far less than your cellphone and are worth much more. Jesus Christ, how much more simple can it be?? Oh, wait, the Depo shots are even easier! AAARGH!!! Brain hurts...cannot understand....

I'm ashamed to say that on this topic I do feel a very frustrated and weary superiority to many of my fellow human beings. :(

[Dirk the Jerk]

i was watching maury a while back (hey, i was in a waiting room, back off!). they had a woman who was trying to ascertain the father of one of her kids. they tested the NINTH man, which she was certain had to be the one. prognosis: negative. empirically, that means nothing, but wow.

mac diva has severe psychological problems and is a racist idiot to boot. proceed with caution.

[Mrs. du Toit]

Eva, I'll just throw out that I was doing all that. That's the myth (or the lie) that we're not willing to talk about. You CAN do all those things--you can use the pill, the condoms, whatever, and STILL end up in a situation unplanned.

There is only ONE method of birth control that cannot fail.

But if we suggested THAT then we'd be stifling people! We'd be denying them their right to explore their sexuality--which they'd do anyway. Blah blah repeat blah.

I wish someone would have shaken me. That right had some consequences.

[PatD]

Here Here!

I grew up in Appalachian KY and the welfare system has RUINED our culture! I taught 13-14 y/o girls who were PLANNING on getting pregnant over the summer. Drop out of school, get a check from the government, be a grown-up. There are families that know no other lifestyle for the last 3+ generations. Why would the menfolk do better? They were raised by unwed mothers with siblings sharing the same mommy but different daddies. As far as they know...that's the way it's SUPPOSE to be!

[wes jackson]

On my first visit to your blog I found one or two thoughts from this most recent post. the complete essay is a total grand slam out of the park!

I was shocked when, on taking my son to his first day of High School, I found a day-care center next to the cafeteria on school grounds. I was born when my folks were 16 and 17. They had to leave town and take up a new life in a new city.
We ALL need to go back to that way of thinking, the sooner the better.

Thanks to you for such a great blog!

[Helen]

Juliette, well said.

An accompanying ad is one that could be done using Richard's words, "mommy, who don't you let daddy be my daddy."

For too long, black women have preached the "strong black woman" myth as though that were something to be proud of. In some respects, it is. However, when closely examined, the "strong black woman" myth derives from the concept of the "weak black man" which is also its corollary. Thus, "strong black woman" is both source of the problem and its consequence.

It seems to me that every time a woman utters it, she is actually taking a cut at her man. She is telling him -- which she does -- I don't need or want you to do anything for me, except be a sperm donor, cuz I can do it all myself. How is that different from slavery? Not very much. In a twisted way, the "strong black woman" has replaced the slaveowner and the overseer; the man is used until his sexual services are necessary, then he is shoved aside. Then he is used until his financial services are no longer obtainable by law, and again he is dropped by the way.

Thus, her mantra is actually an indicator that she has no respect for him as a man; for, in her view, the black male is less than a man because she refuses to be a "weak" woman with him. In so doing, many a black womann loses out on an enduring and committed marriage in which her "weakness" actually strengthens the bond.

Understand, by weakness I don't mean anything else but the woman's ability and willingness to trust the man to be a stand up guy. Trust him to provide; trust him to be a faithful husband; trust him to be a good daddy; trust him to be a man a woman can be proud of and lean on. That's what I think is missing and what drives a lot of these women.

A reflection of this is in the "I gotta get mine" attitude so many black women exhibit. There is nothing more devastating to an enduring relationship than having a woman who is looking out for herself -- the "strong black woman" who puts numero uno before her relationship with him. Why does she "gotta get hers"? Cuz she can't trust him to be a man who does manly things.

I'm not saying that all black men out there are choir boys. Many are irresponsible so-and-sos, but I think that that quality has been enhanced by women who don't seem to want a man to be responsible. What is all that about supporting a man who's capable of working, and often is?

Personally, I refuse to be a "strong black woman." Singleness and celibacy are endurable until someone comes along with whom I can be "weak."

[Rikki]

Personally, I refuse to be a "strong black woman." Singleness and celibacy are endurable until someone comes along with whom I can be "weak."

I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

[Ginny]

Very nice, Juliette. When are you going to write your own weekly column? Get a little cash for your genius.

[Joe2]

Actually, the question I ask myself is: why do I seem to meet so many women theses days who are just too volatile or wishy-washy to stay in a relationship?
No-one is infallable!

[Steve H.]

A girl of sixteen can control a baby, but no woman of thirty-four can control an eighteen-year-old man . That's why young black men go to jail, and it's why children need fathers.

And the same thing happens to the children of single white women.

Wonderful post.

[Bonfire7]

This is my first visit to your blog and I am impressed. I will "lurk" around and while and read through your blog.

Thank you for posting this. I have two grandkids, my stepdaughter's children, who are being raised by my stepdaughter's mother and stepfather. We can relate a lot to this post.

I look forward to seeing more of your writing.

[Deb]

Excellent post, but let's not let white men off so easily either. I agree that this is a bigger problem (statistically) right now in the African-American community, but I see a rapidly disintigrating family situation in the lower-income white community as well. I think one other factor contributing to the problem of single-motherhood-by-choice is the fatherlessness of children in the first place. It's a vicious cycle: Daughters without fathers to help them develop self-esteem crave the attention of sons without fathers who've never learned how to treat a woman with respect because they've never seen it done. Result? Young angry or clueless men taking advantage of young insecure (and mostly pretending to be liberated and "independent") women.

It's not a pretty picture, no matter what color one uses to paint it.

[submandave]

PatD: "I taught 13-14 y/o girls who were PLANNING on getting pregnant"

This mirrors exactly the situation a teacher friend of mine here in Memphis found at his lower-income area school. In fact, these girls would discuss among themselves who they would try and "do it" with, as having a bigger gangster as your baby's daddy imparted greater status in their society.

What is often seen as the absent father problem is really a similar symptom of different problems in different social and economic groups. On the one hand there is the "strong woman" model that so many have spoken of here, a model more likely to apply in mid to upper income cases and greatly influenced by the gender-feminist "I don't need a man" ideal. However, I do not believe this to be the predominent cause of single parenthood in lower income situations. There, I think the problem is much more endemic and pervades the entire social structure and norms.

[ErikZ]

"the intent of the billboards appears to be to embarrass and marginalize black men."

uh, and then what? I mean, imagine this works beyond their wildest dreams and black men are embarrassed and marginalized so hard their teeth hurt.

Results being?

I just can't imagine anyone spending cold hard cash on this.

[Mac Diva]

A hearty thank you to the person (Leslie, I think) who posted the correct information about the Finnish AIDS case. Far too much misinformation is spread on blogs. It is good to get things right.

I'm still troubled by the fact the billboards are being funded by the eugenics movement. They believe that black people are genetically inferior and would be overjoyed if all people of African descent stopped reproducing. I don't think their goal is to 'help' African-Americans a bit more than the Nazis intended to 'help' Europe's Jews. They have a final solution in mind -- containment or erasure.

On an anthropological note, the most neglectful fathers of children of color historically were actually white men. They fathered millions of children with slave women and treated them as property. The practice of irresponsible fatherhood of black children by white men continued in the South through the 1960s at least. Alice Walker has said she modeled some of the neglectful and abusive black men in her fiction on their white fathers.

A tip of the hat to Deb for not going along with the 'Oh, those pathogical black folks' aspect of the thread. White middle-class men make up the bulk of those who refuse to pay child support.

I haven't reached the issue of whether any of this blame game is justified, but will.

[Old Fogey]

On somewhat of a tangent concerning why young women, black or white, who have children without the benefit of a husband. Two young unwed girls in my family have had children in the last three months. Ones father died when she was 10, the others father ran off at about the same age. both of these girls mothers were from "good middle class" families. While a sample of two makes for poor statistics, It looks like this problem runs throughout our culture, black and white, poor and middle class. Maybe the rich don't have the problem or maybe they just don't talk about it.

Both of the girls have stated that they don't want to get married "just yet", because they don't want to force a marriage just because they got pregnant. Makes me want to run out and bite a telephone pole into several pieces.

Another thing that makes me go Hmmmmm!. When it comes to interracial marriages we see far more white women marrying black men than vice a versus. Does this mean that black men make better marriage material than whites? All sorts of possibilities here that I am sure raise hackles on just about everybodies neck. Which probably makes it a question that ought to be ask.

[joel]

About the interracial marriage thing (more white women marry black men than black women marry white men), maybe the question should be turned around.

Why do black men marry white women?

When I go out to the movies in a very integrated part of town, I am struck by the facts that:
1. Very few black men are with women who are noticeably darker than they are.
2. I see as many white men with black women as I see light skinned black men with dark skinned black women. (That is, very few.)

There is a color bar here, which is obvious to anyone who looks.

This goes back a long way. I recall reading Soul on Ice (I think it was) back in the 1960's, when young criminal black men like Cleaver were regarded as victims and heroes, wherein the author describes why black men preferred white women. There was a certain hardness (I think that was the printable adjective he used, but, this was 35 years ago) that black women had that white women did not have.

So, maybe if we subsitute "independence" for "hardness" as a more precise term, it would seen that a fiercely independent black women drives some black men away.

Which makes sense. What man needs his woman to tell him he is worthless or unnecessary? Males have fragile egos. Or, some might say, a sense of self-respect.

[baldilocks]

Darker-skinned black women (like me) go against the *general-accepted* American standard of female beauty. Not complaining, not saying that many don't accept that standard,not saying anything else. Just explaining.

[baldilocks]

Mac Diva: The amount of black children is not an issue (no pun intended) and was never an issue in the thinking that went into the writing of this post. One of my sisters has four children (a large amount for this day; the eldest will turn thirteen later this year; the youngest is a mere two weeks old). Little Sister is *married* to the biological father—a man with two jobs--of *all* of those children. I love and applaud all of them.

The conditions under which black children are born are the issue here.

The issue at hand is black illegitimacy. Yes, there are those who don’t want more blacks in the world. So what? Are they rounding pregnant black women up, taking them to Planned Parenthood and scraping out their wombs? No? Then they are irrelevant to this discussion.

You make a historical assertion about white men. Are they the majority of men who are impregnating black women now? No? Then your historical assertion is irrelevant to the discussion.

The discussion is this: how illegitimacy hurts the black community. Too many women do not have the foresight to at least *try* to set the stage in which their offspring will best flourish: in a married, man-woman household.

As for women getting older and having the “opportunity” to reproduce before their time runs out, that mindset is part of the selfish attitude of which I speak.

And in the future, be so kind as to refrain from addressing any of my commenters as “fools.” If I deem them to be rude, it’s my place to take care of it.

[Mac Diva]

The interracial marriage rate for people of African ancestry has been about 60 percent black male/white female and 40 percent white female/black female. However, the fastest growing rate of interracial marriage is between white men and women of African descent. The rate should equalize during this decade. My guess is that the out marriage rate for women of African descent will pass that of men of African descent. Why? Because black women are more likely to attend and complete college and work in middle-class environments. Most interracial couples meet in such integrated settings.

In regard to what Juliette said about appearance, colorism is a difficult problem that has been pushed under the rug too long in communities of color. There are actually cases coming before the EEOC involving discrimination by people of color (of all backgrounds) against each based on who has a little less melanin than the other. This is a problem where the solution starts at home.

The rules of attraction? Don't know that they are fully explicable. My personal experience has been being pursued mainly by white males since junior high school. I've always been surrounded by them in school and at work. Though some white guys are just as intimidated by bright women of color as some black ones, some aren't. That is the sort I've been involved with and married.

[Mac Diva]

I believe my previous comments are relevant because they put the issue of how black families came to be the way they are in context. Most African-American families are five generations away from slavery, one generation away from segregation. No one can possibly understand what is going on without considering the historical circumstances.

If my goal were to ingratiate myself with white folks, I would avoid any hint of criticism of them, as Juliette does. However, it isn't. It is to tell the truth. The truth about how people of African descent have been treated in America is not flattering to white America. Anyone who pretends it is is lying.

[Helen]

Jeez, Mac Diva, have you ever heard of objectivity? Since when is being objective ingratation?

[baldilocks]

Avoiding critizing "white folks?" Hmmm. Your latest post, Mac Diva, reminds me that sometimes one only sees what one wishes to see.

My post, Representative of Some comes to mind immediately. Then their is my defense of the blogger S-Train and his self-defense story. What I *don't* do is let black people off of the hook when they are truly at fault. Were the present illegitmacy rate among black Americans in, say, 1920, or 1880, close to what it is today, I'd say that the phenomenon might be a legacy of slavery or an outgrowth of the abuse of black women by white men (pretty prevalent in the South of old). That isn't the case.

[ErikZ]

I'd like to add to Baldilocks point. I have nothing against dating/marrying a black woman. Beautiful is beautiful in any race. The problem is that I can't remember the last time I've seen a black woman at work. Let alone in a relaxing social setting.

I think the problem is that black women don't hang around places where they can meet non-black guys and visa versa.

Ooo, wait, I remember one. I worked with a black girl at my last job. She was married though. To a white guy.

[Jason Bontrager]

Responding to Connie Du Toit's comment about there being only one 100% effective method of birth control. I agree, but most women don't want to get hysterectomies just to avoid pregnancy. You, being a very intelligent woman, could not reasonably have meant "abstinence". Abstinence does not protect women from rape, and hence cannot 100% protect them from pregnancy, though it can reduce the odds. But so can the Pill, or condoms, or IUD's, or plenty of other methods.

Just a quibble.

[Richard Aubrey]

Mac Diva.
You missed a point that is so howlingly obvious it ought to have hurt. You should have heard it ""whoosh" on the way by.
The social pathologies in the black underclass have increased as the distance from slavery increased.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?
From which it follows, clearly, and unambiguously, that slavery isn't the issue, unless it has some kind of harmonic or cyclic result, where it goes underground for generations, only to surface later.
Shelby Steele said white liberal guilt had done something slavery and Jim Crow had failed to do..destroy the black family.
He forgot to mention the influence of slavery, gone this hundred and forty years. Maybe you should tell him.
Not to mention the irrelevance of your theme. Unless there is something which your information will allow society to do, it would be irrelevant even if it were true.
We are now HERE. We must start with what we have NOW.

[Cricket]

Stinkerr,
When my money pays for the upbringing of that child, I most definately have a say in it.

Parenting isn't cool when you have to work and take care of a baby. Child abuse stats are higher for single parent families than they are for two parent families.

The state wants to help...so let us put back into the curriculum the teaching of abstinence, the best way to prevent loss of self esteem,
STDs and unwanted pregnancy.

BTW, it would also help if there was a return to the stigma of bastardy via the actions of the parents.

I don't know if you remember the late Ingrid Bergman? She was OSTRACIZED from Hollywood in the 1950s for having her lover's child!

OSTRACIZED! She couldn't work. She was forced to go back to Sweden where there were no such moral restrictions.

Now, the government hands you a check, makes sure you get all the care you need...etc.

I do have a say in it as a taxpayer and Baldilocks was right on the money for everyone.

Good post and keep em coming.

[joel]

It is clear that a lack of good job opportunities and welfare have combined to really mess up the black family (and many poor white families, too.)

A very similar pathology is well developed on American Indian reservations.

It's not really the level of income either. The noble familes of Europe decayed over time, too, for the same reasons.

[Alice]

Joel, "There was a famous case years ago, about 1960, when NYU kicked a pregnant, unmarried woman out of school. There was a fuss and she was readmitted. I recall well William Buckley wrote an editorial against letting her back in, but to no avail. Single motherhood became accepted." OK, you seem like a decent person and I agree with much of what you said, but this I must address, my friend. How about giving her support so that she can get an education and not mooch off welfare? How about going after the father and, as a society, making sure he feeds his offspring and cares for the mother? (Granted that takes willingness on the part of the mother to go after the father and in 1960 would have required that the douche bag admit he was the father, but I'll get back to that.) I'm going to bottom line this: women have been treated like crap because they happen to be the human to carry the child since the dawn of man, and for this we can blame, well, just about everyone. The current popularity of abortion is a DIRECT result of this. I would like to see the number of abortions in the world go down, drastically. (I'm one of those rare liberals who is very uncomfortable with it.) Yes, everything Baldilocks said is wonderful. I couldn't agree more. But a huge solution to this problem would also be to make sure anyone who wants birth control has it FOR FREE, in addition to campaigns like the one she highlighted and that I love. It would also be great if women knew that the sperm donor, I mean father, would actually be held responsible in the eyes of the law. In some places, this happens, but in too many the donor gets away with murder. I just want you to think about how appealing abortion is to a woman who thinks she and she alone, excuse me, and her CHILD, will be treated like pariahs. I'd rather these women keep their legs closed or use birth control, but if they get pregnant, let's do all we can to direct them away from abortion.

[Mac Diva]

If I did not check the clock on my computer while reading over here, I would think it is 1904 instead of 2004. The attitudes being expressed by the last round of commenters are that dated. Not to mention inaccurate. The welfare system, which never supported anyone to the poverty level anyway, has been eviscerated for more than a decade. Single mothers work. The myth of John Does supporting numerous fatherless offspring is false too. The average poor mother is about as fertile as her middle-class counterpart, between two and three children.

Jason, Juliette has an incredible tolerance for white people saying bigoted things. However, I think even she may be insulted by your claim that circumstances as recent (yes, recent) as slavery and segregation have no negative impact on the lives of African-Americans. I'm sure she has family members that know that is false, if she doesn't herself.

I posted the first of what will be three entries about this topic earlier this week. The second should be up tonight.

[Lauren]

"Both of the girls have stated that they don't want to get married 'just yet', because they don't want to force a marriage just because they got pregnant."

When my son was born, I too decided not to get married right away. It turned out to be a good idea. "Babydaddy" was uninterested in me or my son - and abusive to boot - and the lack of marital binds made it much easier for me to get out and fast. My parents were furious, but decided soon after the break that my decision was the right one - they too are political and social conservatives. Once a child support and custody frame was put into place, my son's father stepped up to the plate and finally became an involved parent. Good for him. Now that he is indeed a part of my son's life, I assert that our quality of parenting does not rely on whether or not we are married.

I'm curious to know why it's assumed that single parents, especially black single parents, take a welfare check. We know that the majority of folks on welfare are white women with children, not black women with children. Does the "welfare queen" myth live on?

Research also shows that "shotgun marriages" are likely to end in divorce, and that those who marry young are more likely to divorce than those who wait.

For many, parenthood urges a shift in priorities, and although I've offered some contrary anecdotal evidence, I hardly think that anecdotal evidence proves the point of irresponsibility and inadequacy on the single parents' part.

Single parenthood need not be viewed as disastrous, nor should it be viewed in black-and-white. All things require context, some of which is missing in many of the comments here.

Nonetheless, thanks for the stimulating discussion.

[Mac Diva]

I was thinking about the women we would have to brand with an X and exclude from society for being teenage and/or single mothers a couple weeks ago because of the abuse that was heaped on American Idol winner Fantasia Barrino -- if we bought into such thinking. Barrino, 19, has a two-year-old daughter. Among the teenage and/or single mothers would be Susan Sontag, Maya Angelou, Oprah Winfrey, Loretta Lynn, even Mary Tyler Moore. Food for thought. Do we sneer at these women or do we congratulate them for excelling while being parents at young ages?

The second entry in response to this one is up at Silver Rights.