Which Uncle Was at Buchenwald?

Many people have stayed on the case with regard to Barack Obama's claim of having one of the uncles on his American side present during the liberation of one of the infamous camps set up by Nazi Germany. When it was recalled that the senator's mother was an only child, reasonable observers figured out that he had to be talking about a brother of either of his maternal grandparents. As it turns out he has only two great-uncles old enough to have served in WWII,* one on each side--Ralph E. Dunham Jr. and Charles Payne, brothers of his grandfather and grandmother, respectively.

As for which camp was liberated, it turned out that the uncle in question, Mr. Payne, had been a part of the 89th Infantry Division which took down Ohrdruf--a part of Buchenwald--rather than Auschwitz, the death camp which had been originally cited by Obama. So after the details were straightened out, everyone was happy.

Except for the fact that the details are not straightened out.

Dan Riehl:

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne [sic]. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

Charles W. Payne of Kansas, with a similar birth era, served in the Navy during WWII.

However, the folks at Sweetness and Light went to the 89 Infantry Division Site to reconcile the information. And after some BDS-infused charm displayed by the site's proprietor, got the information requested: whether a Charles W. Payne served in the 89th Infantry Division which liberated the Ohrdruf concentration camp. Answer:

Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.

Charles T. Payne did serve in the unit in question on the mission in question.

Which brings up two more questions: 1) Is this same Charles Payne an uncle of Obama's, and 2) What about Mr. Dunham?

(Thanks to Rand Simberg at Transterrestrial Musings and Tully at Stubborn Facts)

UPDATE: According to Tully, Ralph E. Dunham Junior's name does not appear on the roster of the 89th Infantry Division site.

*Obama also has another great uncle but that one is in his seventies--too young. (Thanks to notropis)

Comments

[Tully]

I'll add a bit more: I've discovered that Obama has at least one more great-uncle, just none old enough to show up in the 1930 census or consequently have served in WW2. His g'uncle Jon lives in Arizona, but would have been still a child during the war.

The detailed 1940 census data are not due for release until 2012.

A 1940 or 1041 city directory for Augusta, KS might shed some light. Even assuming a wrong middle initial in the Kansas draft/enlistment/census records, we still can't link CT of Chicago with Charles of Augusta as yet. The likeliest draft record is for Charles E. Payne of Augusta, who was drafted into the Army in 1943. CE is still not CT.

Ohrdruf was no doubt a horrific sight even for battle-hardened infantry, though I'm not sure "liberate" is the right word, as apparently there was no one alive remaining to liberate when it was found.

[notropis]

I don't know who was or wasn't there; the notion that there just happened to be a Charles Payne who apparently was there, but still, somehow, that's just coincidence, and it wasn't Barack's grandmother's brother -- come on, people.

In the meantime, I'd draw your attention to this story, about the platoon that did first set foot in Ohrdruf:

Fateful steps into history

God bless the Charles Payne who was there, and God bless Barack's uncle Charles Payne -- and I'm assuming I'm wishing God's blessing on the same person twice.

As I've said elsewhere, what bothers me about Barack's use of this story is that the lesson he draws from it seems to be that his uncle was a victim, not a hero, someone whose unfortunate experiences caused him to spend months holed up in an attic, rather than someone whose post-traumatic stress was yet a further sacrifice paid for the necessary elimination of the evil of Nazi aggression. Symptomatic of this emphasis is, in fact, the fact that while Barack can't be bothered to remember little details like the name of the camp, or even what country it was in, the details of the uncle's story, after he returned to the US, he has down pat.

[notropis]

And another story about Ohrdruf from the 89th Infantry's site:

The Forgotten Death Camp

[Tully]

notropis, that bothered me about the story as well. Obama held up his uncle not as a hero for his service, but as a victim OF his service. And he didn't care enough about the facts to get them straight, even though accounts say it's been called to his attention before.

In further digging I've uncovered that a Charles Payne of Chicago has been a big Obama donor since 2003, and donated the maximum to his presidential campaign in Feb 2007. Obama knows his uncle well enough to get money from him, but not well enough to clear up the story.

[twolaneflash]

GoBama tossing another white relative (real or imagined) under the bus in 10, 9, 8....

Keeping street-cred is an ongoing struggle with so much white baggage to toss. Word, Barry.

[notropis]

"Obama held up his uncle not as a hero for his service, but as a victim OF his service."

Thanks. That's what I was trying to say.

And he's hitting the uncle up for money. I suppose that anyone running for office has to be a bit spoiled, selfish and narcissistic, but Obama seems to even put Bill Clinton to shame, and that's saying some.

[stuiec]

Wait, wait, wait. C. T. Payne was in the 355th Infantry Regiment. But the "C." in "C. T." might well be Christopher or Cecil or Clarence.

If Obama's great-uncle has only one middle initial of "W.", then it's not at all clear or proven that he's the same soldier listed in the roster of the 89th Division.

[Dave]

Somebody beat me to it.

But --

The record grudgingly shared by Kitchell does not specify the name, only the initials C. T. Payne.

There is nothing to tell us that this man was named Charles. Not yet. Maybe not ever, as records were burned up 35 years ago.

Charles W. Payne is his great uncle, that is for sure. What is NOT sure is that this man served in the 89th division in Germany. Everything says he was in the Navy.

Is that guy in Chicago Charles W. Payne, born 1924? If so, that's his uncle. But he was a Navy man, not an Army man.

[Tully]

Having access to some of the "home town" records (central Kansas is MY neck of the woods) and having done a lot of archival research, I would ask folks to bear in mind that records from that era can indeed be wrong about things like middle initials. People did change their names to suit themselves, records do get mis-transcribed, census people sometimes write down what the neighbor said when someone doesn't answer the door.

The "best bet" for the original Kansas record is the draft board records. The "best bet" among the possible entries there is not the Charles W. of Wyandotte County (northeast part of the state, already confirmed through other sources as NOT Obama's uncle, died in 2000) or the Charles W. of Reno County (50 miles NW of Wichita) but one "Charles E. Payne" listed in draft board records as having been drafted into the Army in 1943 from Augusta, KS. Correct town, right time for reported age. Just wrong middle initial.

I checked the Infantry Journal 1947-published History of the 89th Infantry Division: 1942-1945. CT Payne is indeed listed in it as being in the 355th Inf Regiment, Company K, confriming the online record.

And the Charles T. Payne of Chicago, confirmed elsewhere as the CT Payne of the 355th/89th, has donated a healthy pile of money to Obama since 2003. It beggars coincidence to doubt that someone of that age and service record and name would not be the Charles Payne of Obama's family.

So we have a records error. My guess is that the Charles *E.* Payne drafted in Augusta KS in 1943 is indeed the Charles *T.* Payne of Chicago who served with the 89th. The 1930 census lists Madelyn's brother only as Charles, no middle initial, age 7, living with his parents in Augusta. The 1940 census raw data will not be released until 2012. If I get a chance and can find one, I'll check out the 1940 city directory for Augusta, but I think we have a records slip on the middle initial, and I have yet to track down an original source citation for the "W" middle initial.

[baldilocks]

You can post that info here if you want, Tully.

[gesetzliche Rentenversicherung]

The lesson he draws from it seems to be that his uncle was a victim, not a hero, someone whose unfortunate experiences caused him to spend months holed up in an attic, rather than someone whose post-traumatic stress was yet a further sacrifice paid for the necessary elimination of the evil of Nazi aggression. Symptomatic of this emphasis is, in fact, the fact that while Barack can't be bothered to remember little details like the name of the camp

[baldilocks]

Stimmt.

[Tully]

When and if I get the city directory info, I'll be sure to bring it by.

I actually got berated over at my blog by an apparent Obamite for tracking the info through, doing the original research from primary sources, finding the links, reporting on the results, and nailing down the confusion to muddled records--which may be due to Charles E or W or whatever unilaterally changing his name, as many did in those days.

Go figure. No pleasing some people by chasing down the actual facts and presenting them regardless of whom they favor.

[David M]

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 05/30/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
http://thunderrun.blogspot.com/2008/05/web-reconnaissance-for-05302008.html